Last time, I talked about the reality of knife “fighting”, namely that two guys going at it with knives really doesn’t happen. And when it does, it most often ends with both of them dead. This time, I am going to point out the reality of the legal aftermath.

This week, prosecutors dropped a case of murder against Amber Angelovic in her killing of Derek Valentine on March 11, 2017- nearly three years ago. This is the reality of what you may face with the legal system if you carry and learn to use a knife.

First of all, it is situations like this that lead me to teach so much of the traditional tantojutsu I learned in Japan where you carve up someone who doesn’t have weapons. Yes, you can’t use a deadly weapon unless you feel your life is in danger, but that does not always equal facing someone with a weapon. A woman being dragged into a van has a very real reason to fear she will never be found alive if she can’t get away. In most cases, she would be very justified in killing the man without a weapon on him to avoid such a fate.

In this case, Angelovic claims she went to the house of Valentine, but decided to leave. He would not let her, hit her and she believed he would rape her or worse. So she stabbed him a few times with a knife she carried for self defense.

If what she says is true, then most of us would think she was justified to do whatever it took to get out of there. But her three year ordeal shows that things aren’t really that clear.

I have more friends that carry pocket knives and know how to use them than guns. I carry both. I read stuff from people like Massaad Ayoob that go over the legal ramifications of carrying and using a gun. Even though both knives and guns are considered lethal weapons, there isn’t really much geared towards knife folks on how to not end up in prison for carrying a knife. And many of the forums and groups on the internet devoted to knives and knife “fighting” are overrun with baboons screeching out how they will kill anyone they want, laws be damned.

This may come as a shock to some, but if the police show up to find you standing over a corpse with your knife sticking out of it, they aren’t going to immediately take your word that it was self defense. Actually, the onus is more on you to prove it at that point than on them to prove it wasn’t.

And if you fought off a rapist or the vengeful ex of your current lover and they still live, you can bet they will tell a complete lie about how you attacked them unprovoked. And they will have the stitches to make their story seem true. Yes, a person bad enough to try to kill you is also evil enough to lie about the attack, and some of them are better at telling a lie to the cops than most of us are at telling the truth while freaked out after someone trying to kill us.

If a relative involves you in a sick version of suicide by cop, and leaves a suicide note for the police to find later, you probably will be cut loose as soon as they can match the handwriting to them. And if a man with a history of breaking into houses, raping and killing the women inside is found dead in your living room, then you will probably be let free after they do a quick investigation to make sure there is no texts from you inviting them over. In almost any other case of someone being killed, expect to be arrested. The police can keep you for a few days without even charging you with anything, and they are loath to let free someone that may have set up a murder to look like self defense. They are not going to risk you fleeing the country to some place without an extradition treaty or go into hiding. They will probably arrest you unless things are pretty damn clear that it was self defense, and in most case that sort of clarity just isn’t there.

Angelovic had to show up in a courtroom and plead not guilty to murder. She was later released on bail. It took nearly three years for the DA to make the choice to drop the case, because they found a whole lot of creepy stuff at Valentine’s place. His browser history showed he was looking up date rape drugs, he had a white board with stuff about how to stalk someone and stuff like that. That isn’t conclusive evidence that the story went down as she says it did, but it made any case against her really difficult to prosecute.

She will have this over her head for the rest of her life. Prosecutors can bring a case against someone, even after declining to go forward with it, until the statue of limitations ends. For murder, there is no statue of limitations in the United States. If you slash someone with your knife in self defense, that means they can probably take their time to bring a case against you until the statue of limitations for attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon come up. If Angelovic ends up killing another man in an equally murky case, or just does something like clearly attack an innocent man with a knife, then the DA might very well dust off this case and drag her back into court. Only when you have been found not guilty does the defendant have the guarantee they won’t again face the legal system under double jeopardy. And that isn’t always they case, since if someone gets off on a murder charge at one level they may be hit with a related charge like depriving someone of their civil rights.

In any case, if you ever have to defend yourself, with a knife, another weapon or even just unarmed, the first thing your lawyer will tell you is to shut up and never discuss it with anyone. You have to fear not just the criminal case, but the civil one. Yes, people will try to rape or mug you and then turn around and sue you when you dare to defend yourself. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law as they say. You may note there is nothing in that statement saying that what you say may be used to help get you out of trouble, so best to shut up.

This is why I give the hairy eye to anyone claiming to be in several street fights. Either they are lying, or they are just asking for legal trouble with all their talk. Most likely, they are lying and a bit crazed as well.

I can’t emphasize this enough, if you carry a deadly weapon like a knife, you need to know the legal system. And I am not talking about what bozos in Facebook groups say. You need to read stuff by experts. There are classes out there, mainly geared toward firearm owners, that may save your ass if you end up defending yourself. If you carry a knife, then you better have a lawyer ready to spring into action if you are arrested. Because finding a lawyer that knows how to defend an innocent person is hard to find from behind bars.

And yes, defending an honest to god innocent person is very different from defending a guilty person. And most people that end up arrested are actually guilty. I have heard statements by lawyers saying that in their careers they have never met an innocent person facing trial. Note, they are not just talking about the people they represent. Everyone they knew facing the legal system was guilty as far as they were concerned.

Obviously, innocent people do defend themselves. But it is so rare compared to actually guilty people that few lawyers learn how to defend them. When defending a guilty person, you just have to cast doubt that they did it. But a person defending themselves, maybe fatally stabbing someone, is going to tell the police they did it. So now the lawyer has to prove that their client was justified in doing so. That is an entirely different set of skills.

For firearms, many experts suggest you look up the lawyer that defends the local police after a shooting. Even if you carry a knife, that is probably a great idea. Find out their name and contact number, probably even talking to them or putting them on retainer, well before you might have to carve someone up like a turkey in a dark ally.

I hope no one ever has to find out what it is like to face the legal system after defending themselves. But if you are preparing to defend yourself by carrying a folding knife and learning how to use it, then you need to be prepared for the inevitable legal case against you afterwards. In my opinion, teaching people to defend themselves without letting them know about the legal system is like teaching people the skills to drive without letting them know you have to stop at red lights.

Here is an article about the case of Angelovic and Valentine.

https://www.ocregister.com/2020/02/11/murder-charge-dropped-against-woman-in-fatal-costa-mesa-stabbing/